Letters: Response to ‘A Pro-Palestinian view’ and ‘Rebels seal BYU sweep’ 
February 26, 2009 by Letters
To the Editor,
A RESPONSE TO ‘A PRO-PALESTINIAN VIEW ‘(FEB. 23, 2009)
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance… it is the illusion of knowledge.”
This might be the most convincing and honest statement that appears in “Occupation 101” and as I saw the horrified faces and the hate for the State of Israel being instilled in the audience, I knew that the half truths, omissions, and blatant lies that were propagated in this film were truly the greatest enemy not only of knowledge, but also of peace.
The movie opened by drawing comparisons between the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and civil rights abuses during South Africa apartheid and the civil rights movement in the United States. Jeff Halper, co-founder of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, says that the West Bank is being “ethnically cleansed” of Palestinians by the Israelis. The fact is that the Palestinian population has increased from 947,000 in June, 1967 to over four million today. The film also ignores actions by Palestinian leadership and terrorist organizations that have contributed to the conflict and makes uncorrelated comparisons that radical Palestinian groups are fighting for equality, when they are actually fighting for the destruction of Israel, as stated in Hamas doctrine.
The film states Israel is the biggest threat to Christians in the Middle East. This is variation of a Nazi propaganda that discredits the roots of Judaism in Christianity. William Baker, the head of “Christians and Muslims for Peace” states the “first converts to the teachings of Jesus were Palestinians.” In reality the first converts to Christianity were Jews, just as Jesus himself was Jewish. It is also a reality that William Back was expelled from his congregation after his association with anti-Semetic and neo-Nazi organizations was revealed. Baker was exposed in February 2002 in the Orange County Weekly in a major investigation titled “Hour of White Power.” In fact, Israel is the only country in the Middle East with a growing Christian population. From 1997-2002, Israel’s Christian Arab population grew from 104,800 to 114,300, a 9.1% increase while the Christian population in Palestinian territories is diminishing.
Other experts include Noam Chomsky who, has stated he sees “no anti-Semitic implications in denial of the existence of gas chambers, or of the Holocaust” and is “agnostic” on whether the Holocaust occurred, and Richard Faulk, whose resignation was called for by the U.N. for implying that the 911 attacks were an “inside job” and his inability to remain objective as U.N. special reporter on human rights in the Palestinian territories.
This is not “a pro-Palestinian view”, as read in the Rebel Yell headline, but a “pro-Hate view.” “Occupation 101” is propaganda and though everyone entitled to their right to speech, there is no connection between “Occupation 101” and a college classroom.
Michael Roitman,
Political Science Major
To the Editor,
While whole-heartedly condemning the oppression of Palestinians, to compare Hamas-sponsored activities (such as launching rockets on Israeli schools and suicide bombing) to the NON-VIOLENT struggles inspired by Martin Luther King and Gandhi is both dishonest and perverse.
Dr. Simon Gottschalk,
Professor of Sociology
To the Editor,
RE: REBELS SEAL BYU SWEEP (FEB. 23, 2009)
I was so excited Saturday night when our Running Rebels beat BYU, but now I almost feel ashamed to call myself a Rebel. Monday night a friend who was at the T&M told me about all the F bombs dropped from the Student section. I decided to find out if there was any mention of it in the News. Fortunately, the only chant that made headlines was “Psycho Sara”, referring to BYU player Lee Cummard’s wife. However, the vulgarity spouting from our student body did not go unnoticed. On the Las Vegas Sun’s webpage one reader commented, “It’s disgraceful and the scumbags chanting that are shaming the school and the community.”
Even with the chanting about his wife, and having just lost, Lee Cummard had enough class to call the students “great fans.” Unfortunately the BYU fans don’t feel the same way. If you want to know what they think about us just look it up on CougarBoard.com. I know most of you will dismiss it as them just being sore losers, but why should we give them any excuse.
Is our college education really so worthless that all we can come up with is F U Reno, F U Mormons, and other vulgarities? Psycho Sara was a good chant that I believe had substance, but when some students turned it into “I F*c%ed Sara” they made us out to be the Psychos. We are students of Higher Education, and that means we should strive to be above such “douche baggery” as Abraham states so elegantly on Rebel-net.com.
Come on Rebels! The community comes out to support our team. The least we can do is show some class and dignity that they can have pride in.
Jamin Hansen,
Crisis and Emergency Management
To Michael Roitman:
Chomsky never said he was ‘agnostic’ on the Holocaust. You are either referring to lies spun by Alan Dershowitz or concocting this garbage yourself.
Hamas is a democratically elected government.
If you want to cry about those rockets then you’ll of course condemn every single other government in the world that exercises power over others. All entities use terror.
The US killed how many civilians in Vietnam? How many civilians in Iraq? Sponsered how many corrupt dictators? Etc.
Israel kills more civilians than any Islamic terrorist in Palestine. 10 times the number of children. 5 times the number of civilians in general. This is on top of the Occupation and all the oppression it entails.
Hamas’s antisemitism is not the same vein as the European Christian antisemitism that permeated the world for so long.
If all you’re seeing is a Jew as the oppressor how would you feel? Israelis are JUST if not more racist than Hamas. Israelis who overwhelmingly supported the Gaza attacks. Who voted for Lieberman. Who support loyalty oaths. Etc.
This entire article/replies here are a joke. You should be ashamed for blatantly lying.
Oh wow, I just caught more of the nonsense by Roitman:
800K Palestinians were ethnically cleansed in 48′. This is FACT. It was caused by the Zionists terrorists and the Zionists in general. Declassified IDF reports confirm this and the report was used by Benny Morris among others to confirm the ethnic cleansing.
You go on and on about how the populations have increased. Well the refugee population is now FIVE MILLION.
What the hell does the population in I/P have to do with the refugees? You’re a PoliSci major? How is that possible.
“To the Editor,
While whole-heartedly condemning the oppression of Palestinians, to compare Hamas-sponsored activities (such as launching rockets on Israeli schools and suicide bombing) to the NON-VIOLENT struggles inspired by Martin Luther King and Gandhi is both dishonest and perverse.
Dr. Simon Gottschalk,
Professor of Sociology ”
ICEBURRRRRRRRRN!
“My ‘agnosticism’ is in print. I described the Holocaust years ago as the most fantastic outburst of insanity in human history, so much so that if we even agree to discuss the matter we demean ourselves. Those statements and numerous others like them are in print, but they’re basically irrelevant because you have to understand that this is part of a Stalinist-style technique to silence critics of the holy state and therefore the truth is entirely irrelevant, you just tell as many lies as you can and hope that some of the mud will stick. It’s a standard technique used by the Stalinist parties, by the Nazis and by these guys.”
-Noam Chomsky, _Chronicles_of_Dissent_, 1992
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19810228.htm
Research is hard work, Michael. Stay in school.
-PhilB
Is it sad that I knew exactly who was writing the above post two sentences into it. Michael Roitman, you have become almost the unsaid leader of pro-Israeli views on campus.
That being said, I could almost respect your arguments, if they weren’t based on purile “facts”, that you always bring up:
- population numbers
- Hamas, and the spectre of terrorism
- the land area of Israel
-quotes from people, probably quotes that are screened from some website that claims itself to be a watchdog for anti-Semitism
All of which could be looked up on Wikipedia.
My good sir, if there is anybody on campus who could be pointed to as being ignorant, or a polemic, it is you.
Who was one of the main instigators of the throwing out of Rebelyell newspapers and the boycotting of the Rebelyell when you felt they issued anti-Semetic statements? Statements which were, by the way, not pro or anti any against, just purely empirical.
Who shuts down any attempt at dialogue, by issuing a monologue of buzz words such as “anti-Semitism”, in order to try your harder to character assassinate a worhty oppenent?
The fact of the matter is Michael, I have sat back for a while now and watched you do your thing. And as much I as try not to attack people, but rather abstract ideas, it is people that keep open dialogue from happening. But make no mistake about it, there are people like you on BOTH sides of this issue, you just represent one of them.
The biggest lesson that YOU and others shoudl take away from the Holocaust is just how much wrong and evil humans can perpetrate when they view themselves as being on the “right side” of an issue, and have the power to defend that side.
Because at the base of all of our politics, rhetoric, and quite frankly BS…there are people who suffer the consequences.
Oh and Micheal I forgot.
Another tactic you use is the slander of “self-hating Jew” who is imposed on anybody who attempts to defend the Palestinian people (not Hamas), or even try to see the world through the eyes of a Palestinian.
Again
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance… it is the illusion of knowledge.”
Please do not twist the truth.
Before speaking, please watch the complete movie at ( occupation101 dot com )
Listen to israeli people and officials who are against occupation
Historically, there were NO country named israel before. It was only Palestine. This is considered the biggest robery in the history.
Before we speak about self defense of the occupaying and opressing zionist millitants, we have to consider the right of oppressed and occupied people to defend thier holy land. The land in which the three Abrahamic religions lived in peace through the entire history untill these zionist terrorist militants came and started the violance and terror 80 years ago
http://www.georgegalloway.com/index.php
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.vivapalestina.org/
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
http://electronicintifada.net/
http://www.ajjp.org/
http://www.ijsn.net
If you read/watch nothing else about Palestine please watch this and please forward!
http://palestinian. ning.com/ video/video/ show?id=1970466% 3AVideo%3A53743
Through the voices of scholars, media critics, peace activists, religious figures, and Middle East experts, Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land carefully analyzes and explains how–through the use of language, framing and context–the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza remains hidden in the news media, and Israeli colonization of the occupied terrorities appears to be a defensive move rather than an offensive one.
http://plands.org/
http://www.freepali.com/
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/
http://notimetocelebrate.wordpress.com/
http://www.18000homes.org/
http://www.lajewsforpeace.org/
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
http://stand4justice09.wordpress.com
What’s Gottschalk smoking? Did he even see the film? It in no way equates Hamas with the civil rights struggle in the U.S. or the Indian Independence Movement. Perhaps the prof. should curb such knee jerk reactions without knowing the whole story.
Again,“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance… it is the illusion of knowledge.”
Please, do not try to twist the truth.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Do not label the victim with terrorism and leave the oppressor free.
Read the history of the biggest robery in the history, A robery of a country called Palestine.
You can find the facts in the following websites. If you do not like em, just search in google yourself.
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.ijsn.net
http://www.18000homes.org/
http://electronicintifada.net/
http://palestinian. ning.com/ video/video/ show?id=1970466% 3AVideo%3A53743
http://stand4justice09.wordpress.com/
http://www.vivapalestina.org/
The Palestinian population has been growing due to natural births while the Jewish population has been growing in the West Bank due to ever increasing settlements. Settlements that have been widely denounced in the international community as illegal. That is how the Palestinians are being cleared out in their “own” territories. Which are still to this day subject to Israeli checkpoints, etc. There is still such a thing as The Wall, an abomination which declares that anyone on the “other” side is undesirable and detested, less than human, and not at all fit to interact with the Israelis. If its true purpose was for security, I’m sure the state of Israel could have found a better way to meet that objective in employing the endless amt of money it took to build that horrendeous obstruction. These are realities and I think it’s deplorable how one can not be exposed to these facts without others conjuring up “anti-Semitism” propaganda.
I too clearly recall the days in which Rebel Yell papers were found in the trash bins, where members of Congress were called upon to denounce the paper and its writers, where the writer was demonized and compared to a “spokesman for murder”. There was no tolerance for open and honest dialogue then. That is because as far as I have ever seen, there is no general acceptance of a Pro-Palestinian movement at all. Because to people such as yourself, Michael Roitman, “pro-Palestinian” is necessarily equated to “anti-Semitism”. The subsequent lack of open-minded dialogue stemming from that attitude seems to be a greater hinderance for peace.
You all should know that this happens on college campuses nation wide. Any support or call for justice in regards to zionist aggression is met with an onslaught of attacks by pro-israeli students.. many of them who have been trained off campus on how to use this technique to squash debate. In the 90s we called it “intellectual terrorism” and we concluded that it was not even worth the time or energy. I have seen it on dozens of campuses. A better use of your time and energy should be spent on educating the larger community by showing wonderfully produced films like Occupation 101. I was bumbed to hear i messed it on campus although i have seen it and shown it on other campuses. Then there is also work to be done to help the victims of Israeli state sponsored terrorism.. yes the people of Gaza need your help. Medical supplies are needed for the thousands of innocent people, many of them children, that Israel indiscriminately dropped bombs on. There is still a blockaid, Israel refuses to let supplies in. They are practicing ethnic cleansing on the people of Gaza. So what can we do here in Las Vegas to help those who suffer.. lets have that discussion, and leave the zionist students to run around like a chicken with no head crying anti-semetism.. if that”s how they wanna spend their day let em.. it shouldn’t get in the way of what we need to do. Lastly, Israeli Apartheid week is coming up this month.. are there any plans on UNLV campus.. if so please let me know so i can spread the word to the great Las Vegas community.. there is a great film called Sling Shot Hip Hop, about the hip hop community in Palestine and how they use the culture to resist occupation. Google it.. it might attract a lot of students who otherwise would not be interested in Middle East affairs.
Anything i can do let me know..
And remember.. NEVER GIVE UP!
Troy Nkrumah M.A., J.D.
troy@nhhpc.org
Thank you Michael for your passionate and intelligent article. Unfortunately, most of your critics bring plenty of passion, but sadly, little to no intelligence behind their responses.
JD, I’m an ardent proponent of open dialogue and prescribe directly to Voltaire-type support of free speech, but you sir are asinine. You can honestly call Hamas a democratically elected government? Yes, they were elected to office. They forfeited all notions of democracy, however, when they KILLED the remaining Fatah members to solidify their power. The problem with discussion on Israel, is that critics often lose perspective. Could you call the Democratic majority in Congress a democratically body if they decided to blow up the right side of the aisle. Of course not.
Oh and Troy, please go to Israel one day. I think you’ll be shocked to see Jewish and Arab Israelis living together in peace, a peace only broken by suicide bombers and rocket attacks aimed solely at civilians. There is no ethnic cleansing. I am once again shocked that you condemn Israel for such a thing, while supporting Hamas, whose sole doctrine is to cleanse to Earth of the people of Israel. And how can your criticize Michael for merely writing a response? You scream for open dialogue. The right to show Occupation 101 means the right to thoughtfully respond to it, as Michael has done.
Finally, I want to thank Dr. Gottschalk. Thank you stating the blatant truth. Comparing Hamas to MLK and Gandhi is truly sickening.
Am YiIsrael Chai
Troy Nkrumah, It’s sad to know that there are still so many ignorant people in this world. Before you make stupid comments get the facts right. As a South African , I find the fact that you compare the situation in Israel to Apartheid just proves how dumb you are.You should stop writing comments because your are making yourself look like an idiot.
Troy, for the second article in a row I am amazed at how skewed your view is of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I attended Occupation 101, watched the propaganda, and heard the producer speak afterwards. What I saw and heard shocked me. Michael’s investigation of certain speakers in the video shows such a lack of credibility on behalf of the producer and the other makers of tis documentary. The video was full of opinions and interpretations and not enough fact. The producer himself said that the documentary tried to stray away from the political and religious aspect of the conflict, and focus more on the humanitarian aspect. My question is this: how can you separate those aspects when the politics and religion cause the humanitarian crisis? Hamas has said on multiple occasions that their goal is the complete destruction of Israel. It is them who want the ethnic cleansing. Their rocket attacks, suicide bombing, and propaganda over the last few years just show how low these terrorists will go to accomplish their cleansing goal. Now, the idea that Israel wants an ethnic cleansing is absurd. How could that be possible when millions of Palestinians live in the state of Israel, in their own towns, towns that are not touched by Israelis. For example, my family’s hometown, Carmiel, is a mere kilometer from a city of 20,000 Palestinians called Majed-Al-Khum (unsure of spelling). The two towns live peacefully, with industry flowing from town to town, and many people Majed working Carmiel and vice versa. Hell, in the Lebanon war of 2006, rockets from Lebanon hit Majed on multiple occasions. Ironic huh? So Troy, before you go off on Israeli Apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and the need to tackle the humanitarian crisis, look at the facts. Hamas and Hezbollah have created this conflict and their constant barrage of rockets has further propelled this conflict. Occupation 101 was an abomination of a documentary and full of propaganda. Watch it again if you don’t believe me.
Gershon,
Let address two of your points real quick.
1) The reason why the producer focused on humanitarianism was very understand. Look, this is a very polemic issue, with both sides having supporters that are so stubborn, that they could never even listen to the other. Why it is this? Being these are bury under layers upon layers of political rhetoric and religious justification. By focusing on humanitarian aid, we redirect the focus to the fact that under all that, there are people who are suffering.
Y’all keep bringing up Hamas, Hamas, Hamas…not realizing that many folks who support the Palestinian people don’t give a f*** about Hamas, it is about the people. The same thing is done with Iran. Just cuz I might feel for the Iranian people, does not mean I support President Ahmadinejad. Period.
So stop making connections were there are none. That is irresponsbile
2) Ethnic cleansing does not have to mean genocide. You can ethnically cleanse an area, by forcing people to live in a particular area. I mean c’mon…isn’t “ghetto” an ialian word that referred to the only part of town Jews were allowed to live in? The same thing is happening here. Just because Israelis live near Palestinians, does not mean there isn’t segregation, and ethnically cleansing Israeli neighborhoods of Palestinians. Don’t get it twisted.
This tactic happens all over the world, and across history. So with your reasoning, are you going to tell me that white neighborhoods in the South circa 1950s weren’t ethnically cleansed of blacks, because blacks lived a mile away?
Sorry….typo on my last post. Ghetto is an Italian word
Greg,
This is exactly what I am talking about with my monologue point. People always quick through claims like someone is “stupid” or “ignorant”. What ever happened to educated debate?
And on top of that, what is all this about evidence? Most of y’all don’t put up much “evidence”, aside from buzzwords.
Oh wait, my bad Greg, you said you were a South African. Ok, that changes everything. Now, that must mean you completely understand everything and anything that could relate to South Africa and apartheid right? Man, I am American….but that doesn’t mean I know everything about America.
You gotta stop with that credibility stuff, as though where you from suddenly makes what you say 500% more credible.
The only thing someone can do in the face of such absurdity is laugh.
Laugh while the world around us is going to hell in a handbasket, and people argue endlessly with their empty rhetoric.
Justin,
You appear to be a very thoughtful individual and I commend you for that. But as I suggested for Troy, you should definitely visit Israel one day. Gershon merely gave an example of a village near his family’s hometown. Yes it is an Arab village, but it is not a form of segregation. Its inhabitants merely wish to have a homogeneous community. It’s no different than finding a large jewish community in a New York borough. Cities like Tel Aviv and Haifa, however, are vastly heterogenous, peacefully mixing Jewish, Muslim, Christian, and Baha’i residents. I’ve personally eaten in many Arab restaurants (they make delicious Hummus) and have visited several Mosques. And I haven’t heard of a form of segregation where “the victims” hold seats in governments. Dozens upon dozens of Arab Israelis have served in the Knesset (Israeli Parliament). Many sat on seats for mainstream parties like Likud and Labour while others sit for the current United Arab List, which exists solely for the creation of a Palestinian state. And Justin, if you still find reason to argue, and say they aren’t enough arabs in the Knesset than try to think about how many minorities sit in the US Senate. The simple truth is that Israel is ironically an extremely peaceful place. Homicide rates are far lower than that of the US. The only thing disrupting this peace, is the radical extremism of groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Gershon had a valid point. How can you examine the Humanitarian situation in Gaza, without looking at the factors that led to it. It’s like saying, hey listen I’m going to criticize the roots of the current financial crisis without having any understanding of its causes. In simple terms, you can see the situation sucks, but you have little understanding of what led to the situation and in turn, what must be done to fix it. I agree the situation in Gaza is terrible, but sending in 15 year old boys into a restaurant to blow themselves up isn’t going to solve the humanitarian crisis. You have to examine that extremism, before talking about a solution.
So i am the idiot.. lol.. the only thing that makes me stupid is that i waste my time even responding to such idiotic posts. When you get to my level, academically, come see me and we can have an intelligent discussion on the subject. Until than, trying to debate me on the facts will result in you running out the room crying and screaming because your feelings get in the way of your critical thinking. Someone said go to Israel.. that right there shows the ignorance of the person posting. An intelligent person would have asked.. “have you ever been to Israel” and not assumed that I have not been.
This is why I encourage people of conscious to not even engage in this rhetoric. It is the same on every campus, and we all understand why. If you were to admit the evil and illegal actions of your precious state, you would then have a moral obligation to do something about it. Then some of your own people would start calling you a “self-hating jew”. Luckily there are tons of Jews who oppose Israeli Occupation and Aggression. It is those Jews that convince the rest of the world that that its not ALL JEWS that are evil.. only the Zionist ones.
As for Arabs in Israel.. simple research will conclude that racism against Arabs in Israel is on the level of 1950s American style racism. Zionists dont even allow Arabs to have political parties participating in the elections.. and they wanna call it a democracy. Yeah right..
As for the South African… you give me a list of differences between Apartheid and Zionism, and I will give you a list of similarities.. lets see who’s list is longer. And lets keep in mind Israel was the only nation in the entire world that did not participate in the international boycott against the Apartheid regime. It was the US and Israel but we shut this government down and forced them to implement the sanctions. Now lets ask the “South African” if they are White or Black, because their perspective on Apartheid and Zionism will have completely different interpretations depending on their experience under it. My money says they are a white south african.
Anyway, back to work folks.. we have an international conference on Racism that the zionists are crying about because 99.5% of the world agree’s that Zionism is Racism.. lets see if we can educate the other .5%. It must suck to know that the whole world is against you.. but there is one simple solution.. END THE OCCUPATION, LEAVE ALL OF PALESTINE, CLOSE ALL SETTLEMENTS ON PALESTINIAN LAND.. ALLOW THE RIGHT TO RETURN FOR THE PALESTINIAN DIASPORA.. then.. and maybe then the worlds opinion will change and you won’t look like such evil devils.
Like i said, when ever you wanna debate, bring your best zionist scholar and lets do it.. i got money that says he/she starts crying a half hour into our debate. Matter of fact, I will only use Jewish sources for my material, and still make you cry.
What all the comments here fail to address is what the response to Occupation 101 actually said. The response simply showed the viewers and readers of the rebel yell who the video chose to use as their experts, as the evidence and backbone of their argument, and the facts stated about those experts are true.
Nowhere was it stated that pro-Palestinian is anti-Semitism or that compassion for the Palestinian people makes someone a self-hating Jew. It is the fact that Jews are compassionate that emphasizes the complexity of the conflict.
The solution to the crises in the middle east is far from being found but the answers might one day be forged on a college campus, and their is no doubt the U.S. will be a major player. Shouldn’t we as activists, university students, and citizens of the U.S. be making an effort to improve the relationship and unite to find a solution? Justin, doesn’t the answer lie in both Israelis seeing through the eyes of a Palestinian and for the Palestinian to see through the eyes of the Israeli?
That is why Occupation 101 is so dangerous, it does not lead to solutions and it is full of lies. This does not promote open dialogue or compromise, it promotes hate, fear, and extremism and that is why they recruited holocaust deniers and neo nazis for their film. This is not the same as labeling anyone who does not support Israel an anti-Semite. This is not allowing bigots and racists to spew their hate and ignorance as fact.
It is this hypocritical rhetoric and self imposed victimization that has turned college campuses into hot spots for anti-Israel movements. When semantics and political correctness doesn’t allow students to stand up and say, “yes what is being done to the Palestinians is wrong but a movie like Occupation 101does not show the full story.”
Why doesn’t the film show Hamas throwing Palestinian patients off the roofs of hospitals during their military coup and rise to power in Gaza?
or the progress being made in the West Bank under Fatah?
or Palestinians terrorist groups launching rockets from schools, using their own children as human shields?
or the Hamas preventing humanitarian aid and gasoline to their own people?
or that “THE WALL” is actually only 3% wall and more than 97% of the planned 720 km. (480 mile) is a chain-link fence? and that stats indicate a 30% drop in the number of terrorist attacks that took place in 2003 compared to 2002.
it doesnt speak about the rights that are enjoyed by all races, religions, genders, in Israel or that it is the only place in the middle east considered safe to the homo-sexual?
it doesn’t show that Israel is a leader in high tech, medicine, agriculture, military technology, and start up companies.
or Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and Americas strongest ally.
When Israel disengaged from Gaza in 2005 they did it in hope of peace and all they have seen is 1,000s of rockets launched into their borders. Until there is a partner to achieve peace their is no hope and as long as propaganda like Occupation 101 is ruining the credibility of a country that has consistently worked towards peace and poisoning the minds of students it is likely that partner will not be there to stop the pain, the suffering, and the frustration in both Israel and the disputed territories.
Michael,
Yes both sides have to see through the eyes of the other. Both the eyes of the Israel are viewed through every time we turn on the tv (CNN, MSNBC, FOX). And I do not say that as some who claims that “Oh, the Jews control all media”. naw, man I see that as somebody who know what an influence AIPAC and ADL have on censoring politicians and news outlets. I mean, a huge campaign was launched after Jimmy Carter released his book calling the system apartheid.
And then, how can we look through the eyes of the Palestinians, when any slighty pro-Palestinians view is denounced as propaganda? I have seen Occupation 101, and Slingshot Hip Hop (which I thought was better). If anything, they are more empiracal in their approach
The Eternal Jew was propaganda man. Not this stuff
Michael, I wanna hear it from you. What types of expression that are pro-Palestinian would not be propaganda in your opinion? Get back to me on that.
The fact that Israel is America strongest ally IS one of the reason why Israel is advanced in science, tech, yadda yadda. The get billions of dollars for all of that. Not just direct aid, but foreign direct investment in private corporations.
And in turn, Israel sides with the US on all of its messed up proposals. For example, after every CIA aided coup in Latin America, who is the first country besides the US to recognize the newly installed government? Israel.
So then the US returns the favor by giving a tons of aid, and turning the other way with their nuke programs. Credible sources say that Israel could have up to 1,000 nuclear weapons at their disposal. How come we don’t send inspectors there? Hell, why don’t we have inspectors here?
In the end, Michael, I can respect your opinion, although I don’t agree with it. But the use of buzzwords and empty claims has to stop.
I do not care what side of the issue you are on. Back your shit up. And for those that want to track down info that shows just how messed things are in Gaza, stay away from corporate media outlets in the US. Go to BCC or elsewhere. Or go to places like the World Health Organization or Red Cross, they will tell it like it is.
Justin,
You speak like an educated adult so please, let me fill you in. Having been to Israel multiple times and having actually visited Palestinian towns I can tell you first hand that your comparisons to the ghetto in Italy and the 1950’s black vs. white segregations are wrong. Lets be frank: the majority of Palestinians and Israelis are different religions. Jewish or Muslim. It is easier to lead a life where your culture and religion are the norm then to assimilate into a city with another religion that has a “rich” history with yours. The end result is that the Palestinians CHOOSE to live with each other in their own cities because of their religion and their culture. In the 1950’s. segregation was the norm because of skin color, and let me assure you that all the people in Israel are a similar shade of brown : ) The fact remains that many Palestinians live in Israeli dominated cities. A common misnomer is that Israelis are only Jewish. In fact, I read somehwere that over a million citizens of Israel are Arab-Israeli. These are passport and national id card holders. They enjoy the same benefits that other citizens do. So Justin., let me say this again. the idea that ethnic cleansing is going on is nonsense. It has been known for years that Israel is reactive and that if the Palestinians wanted peace then there would be peace. Having hundreds of Israeli familty members I can tell you this: there is not an overriding feeling of prejudice towards the Palestinians, no second class status. Anyone who is willing to work hard, work peacefully, and get along with his neighbors is welcome in a country that was created by hundereds of thousands of refugees, ironically the same things that the Palestinians call themselves. When these ideas become the norm for the Palestinians, and the attacks stop, we will know peace.
Gershon,
Dude, in the 1950s, segregation was more the just living where people looked like you. There was a whole system dedicated to keeping you there with practices such as redlining (which are map draw up by housing authorities to determine where people will live, trust me, the maps are well documented), blockbusting, the denial of loans, etc. On top of that, history has shown that crime is often pressured into taking place in certain parts of town (like they did with Chinatown in Los Angeles in the 1880s).
To think that people live where they live just because people look like them is ridiculous. There are a multitude of ways in which people are forced into those areas.
On top of that, many Palestinians are in Israel simply because those were cities that were present pre-1948. After which, Palestinians either were forced out of the state, or forced into these areas.
It is too simplistic to say people always choose to live where they live. I can give you a “multiple choice” test, where you can only bubble in the letter A, and then claim that in the end you made the choice.
And I know not all Israelis are Jewish, or that all Palestinians are Muslim. I am on the sides of ALL Palestinians. Cuz they all have to show their “papers” at military check points. Hmmm….papers….where in history have I heard this from? Sounds familiar.
And of course Palestinians want peace, but every accord offered to them is written extremely in the benefit of the state of Israel. Why would anybody sign any accord to make peace, when they reap non of the benefits?
It’s all one-sided “peace talks” and unbalanced forces.
Justin,
You appear to be a very thoughtful individual and I commend you for that. But as I suggested for Troy, you should definitely visit Israel one day. Gershon merely gave an example of a village near his family’s hometown. Yes it is an Arab village, but it is not a form of segregation. Its inhabitants merely wish to have a homogeneous community. It’s no different than finding a large jewish community in a New York borough. Cities like Tel Aviv and Haifa, however, are vastly heterogenous, peacefully mixing Jewish, Muslim, Christian, and Baha’i residents. I’ve personally eaten in many Arab restaurants (they make delicious Hummus) and have visited several Mosques. And I haven’t heard of a form of segregation where “the victims” hold seats in governments. Dozens upon dozens of Arab Israelis have served in the Knesset (Israeli Parliament). Many sat on seats for mainstream parties like Likud and Labour while others sit for the current United Arab List, which exists solely for the creation of a Palestinian state. And Justin, if you still find reason to argue, and say they aren’t enough arabs in the Knesset than try to think about how many minorities sit in the US Senate. The simple truth is that Israel is ironically an extremely peaceful place. Homicide rates are far lower than that of the US. The only thing disrupting this peace, is the radical extremism of groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Gershon had a valid point. How can you examine the Humanitarian situation in Gaza, without looking at the factors that led to it. It’s like saying, hey listen I’m going to criticize the roots of the current financial crisis without having any understanding of its causes. In simple terms, you can see the situation sucks, but you have little understanding of what led to the situation and in turn, what must be done to fix it. I agree the situation in Gaza is terrible, but sending in 15 year old boys into a restaurant to blow themselves up isn’t going to solve the humanitarian crisis. You have to examine that extremism, before talking about a solution.
The question is not whether Arabs can Knesset, the question is, can Muslims? There are Jewish, Christian, and Muslim Arabs, and they were there long before the European Jews came un-invited to take over Palestinian lands (along with which came almost a million Arab deaths). Israel is an extremely racist country and has been since its existence. The Falasha (African Jews from Ethiopia) are treated like dirt and kept to doing menial work. The Arabs in Israel have been complaining for years about racism directed towards them.. here to make your homework a little easier because you obviously are not doing it.. (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/antiarab-racism-widespread-in-israel/2006/03/24/1143083994155.html)
The worst part about all of this is that the Zionist students that post this ignorance on these types of sites.. actually believe that Israel is the victim and they are just defending themselves. But anyone who takes a couple hours to do the research will see that any threat to Israel is one that they brought upon themselves.. tell you this much, if you put a wall around my home and don’t let me out or let anything in, what do you think i am gonna do, sit around and wait for you to gain some humanity? Or am i gonna launch any and everything i can get my hands on, over that wall, and hopefully into your house! It’s ridicules to expect Palestinians to not resist their oppressor.. only a sick person or a coward accepts their subjugation. Palestine will be free! BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!!!
left out the words “be part of the” knesset
And to add.. i bet these same posters would be in Israel telling the people over there that there is no racism in America. But its not the racist that gets the right to decide if there is racism.. its the victims of the racism that decides.
Gil,
Just want to address a few things:
1) Though I appreciate you commending me for being civil, in a way, doing so makes it seems like you feel everyone with a pro-Palestinian view. Which brings me to my next point….
2) My original post was made primarily to talk about how I thought Michael code of conduct in dealing with this issue is not needed in a debate that seriously needs to be open. I was addressing how we need to stop using buzz words, or taking very unnecessary actions, such as throwing countless Rebel Yell newspapers for a very blown up and false claim about supporting terrorism. So…
3) I did not enter in this conversation to discuss why things are the way they are. That is a different discussion, and quite frankly Gil, I do not believe you should be trying to assume what I do and do not know. If you want a truly informed discussion, with facts, not rhetoric, let’s set it up.
4) Visiting a place does not necessarily mean anything. Guess what…if I were to visit Rio de Janiero, I would see a very heterogeneous population. But that does not change the fact that favelas exist that perpetrate generation after generation of racism and poverty, under the pretenses that those people “chose” to live there.
Tel Aviv and Haifa are relatively “safe” cities. And if you were to go there, do you really think you would be directed to the bad parts of town. C’mon man. If you were to visit Mexico, where are you ushered towards…Cancun? Acapulco? …or at worst…Tijuana? What about the extremely poor states of Chiapas and Oaxaca.
This is why visiting does not necessarily mean understanding. You cannot ask the people living well in Tel Aviv to truly explain how living in Gaza must be like. Just like I would never ask somebody living on the 46th floor of a nice condo to tell what it is like to live in a slum.
As Troy said, you do not go to the oppressor to determine repression or racism, you go to the victim.
Troy,
The shock value of your comments sometimes are astounding. Talk to Hamas sometime; you might be able to make a good living as a talk show host for them.
It’s a safe assumption you’ve never been to Israel, because few people who’ve been there would say the things you are.
You accuse everyone of covering up the facts and yet you are blatantly guilty of such an act. On one comment, you accuse Israel of forbidding arab political parties. When you’re confronted with contrary proof, you change your tune on the next comment, and make a random charge that they are only jewish arabs. I assure you Troy that Mohammad Barake, former Deputy Speaker of the Knesset, is not Jewish. I haven’t researched every single Arab member, but I also assure you they’re not Jewish names. Don’t help fortify the stereotypes that lawyers will say anything to win an argument.
And your accusation of Ethiopian Jews. Please Troy, who are you kidding? Thousands of Ethiopians died during the famine. Israel risked alot to bring in thousands of refugees, giving them citizenship, homes, and work. Next you’ll claim that this act of kindness was racist because many of the refugees were Jewish. I guarantee the thousand + refugees that Israel recently brought in from DARFUR are not Jewish. Israel is not a racist state. Believe it or not, it is composed of dozens of ethnicities even within the Jewish faith itself.
Simply put, the scenario of your home being walled in is pure crap. Prior to the wall, there was about 1 suicide bombing a week in Israel, aimed only at civilians. I don’t expect you to understand what that’s like, wondering if that phone call in the middle of the night is from Israel, telling you about your family member who happened to be on the wrong bus on the wrong day. The wall did its job, bringing suicide bombings levels down to zero. You also ignore the fact that Israel doesn’t hold all the keys to Gaza. Egypt has its own crossing, but refuses to open to to residents. I’m sure you’ll find a way to blame Israel for this as well.
Most of all Troy, you are one of the greatest hypocrites I have ever encountered. You condemn evil zionist violence and yet blatantly approve of it on the reverse. You seem to be a very angry individual. I’d have a personal debate on the issue but:
1) I’ve wasted enough time discussing this with a person who advocates violence
2) You’d probably label me an evil zionist 5 minutes in and take a swing at me.
I pray for peace in the region everyday Troy, but I’m unclear how it’ll come. It certainly won’t come with the end of the State of Israel/the loss of American support, which despite all your whining and accusations, won’t happen. It also won’t come from the type of hatred or violence you advocate. This is an indisputable fact. I’m done with this conversation.
Have a great day.
G-d be with you.
typo on my previous comment
1) Though I appreciate you commending me for being civil, in a way, doing so makes it seems like you feel everyone with a pro-Palestinian view is not. Which brings me to my next point….
Lol.. Gil,you really are an idiot aren’t you?.. and it’s sad because you actually believe what you are writing.. that is the worst part about it.. but as I have said before, it is a good thing that all jews are not blind followers of israel. And for your information, I have been to Israel.
So your dads co-worker is Ethiopian.. well i guess that means there is on racism against the Falasha.. Fool… the president of the united states is black.. and guess what.. there is tons of racism against black people in this country.. still to this day, believe it or not.
Your attempt at proving a point through one exception is very weak. You can talk about Hamas all you want, but first tell me, how do you associate the hundreds of babies that you killed last month as Hamas members?
It’s ignorant people like you that make it impossible for a solution to come about because you are blind to the evil actions of the israeli government. Aren’t you the least bit curious how the entire world see’s one way, and you and your small minority of .0001 percent see it a different way (and it just so happens that your .0001 percent are the ones benefiting from seeing it your way). Doesn’t that ever make you think.. hmmm maybe we are wrong.. maybe we have been committing illegal actions, inhumane actions, Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing against these people for over 60years.. hmm maybe thats why they have to resort to suicide bombings and rocket launches over the wall that we put up and block the rest of the world from passing.
Dude, a very close friend of mine was on the boat last month bringing humanitarian supplies to GAZA when the IDF rammed their boat and tried to sink them. In international waters.. which is a crime worse than piracy in international waters. Little did the idiots know that there were CNN journalists, and elected officials from a variety of countries on board the boat. No you cannot tell me anything about Israel because you see it the way you want to see it, not the way the world knows it to be. Can you even think of one criticism that you could site against the Israeli gov’t. There is not a gov’t on this planet that i cannot come up with some well deserved criticisms of. Or are you soo blind in your zionist faith that you could not even conceive of criticizing them devils.
Lastly, on racism in israel, i tried to make it easy for you by giving you an article. Where you not watching the news over the past couple months where it was widely reported that various Arab political parties were not allowed to participate in the elections this last time around? Do you need me to look that up for you? you know what.. i will do it regardless.. for the others who read these posts.. they can see for themselves that you have provided nothing but a personal bias, where as i am handing you the information backing up what i say.
Enjoy.. and maybe you will get something out of this discourse.. i know its not likely, but hey, that’s why peace in the region is almost impossible.. look at mentality that the Palestinians have to deal with.. total denial on the side of the Zionists… then you get mad when someone denies the holocaust. Such hypocrites! GO READ!
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/01/14/64200.html
http://silversnowe.newsvine.com/_news/2009/01/13/2305917-israel-bans-arab-political-parties-in-israel
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054867.html
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/01/israel_bans_arab_parties.php
There i gave you several sources.. democracy huh? Is that what you call it.
Oh and here is some info about the treatment of Ethiopian Jews and others who are victims of racism in Israel. Now you go find me stories where the victims say there is no racism.. because coming from the perpetrators of the racism, your position holds no weight. Its like Thomas Jefferson saying ‘all men are created equal’ then that racist pig goes home to his plantation full of slaves, several that he fathered… i am sure he didn’t consider himself a racist either. Now go do your homework before you come back at me with more of your denials!
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtStEngPE.jhtml?itemNo=1001041&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&title=%27Do+Ethiopian+immigrants+suffer+from+racism?+%27&dyn_server=172.20.5.5
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/673/in1.htm
http://www.ethiopianreview.com/articles/814
How about everyone who cares goes to Israel to talk to Israeli’s and Palestinians and form their own opinions rather than fighting with words based on incomplete and distorted information. Go to Israeli border towns and then to Gaza and you will see both “sides” of the issue. Unlike the words you see on paper and screens in the USA, you will see terrified human beings and will yourself be a target for bullets and rockets who have no target but the terrorization of the human soul.
Peace
Justin don’t use the term y’all in writing, it diminishes your point. There are human being debating each other here, not jews arguing with gentiles. There are more than 2 sides here. When you say sides, say what side, don’t just say sides. I feel like so many people above want to get their emotions out and few want to debate. To my AEPI brothers, guys don’t call anyone names, you lose the debate the second you do it. And finally, lets not get each other’s point but debate them. You will surely find mixed feelings in Israel and Gaza and if you think you have concerete beliefs living peacefully and comfortably in USA, you are not arguing from a realistic point on the topic. Again, please lets not hate each other because peace in the Middle East starts with peace in every corner of the earth. Sadly, hate seems so much more powerful than love here, or maybe there is just so little love compared to hate in the Middle East.
Lets all pray for peace and whatever deficits we instigate here on earth are corrected in the next world. Lets make this world the best it can be.
Michael,
My use of collolquialisms such as “y’all” should not be the basis of your concern. I mean no malice with it, I merely type the seem way I would talk.
But I do appreiciate, you attempting to call off your AEPi brothers from heated rants and name calling.
It is too bad your weren’t trying to be this rational and fair last year when you went all out on the Rebel Yell. Even allowing a student to be called, and I quote, “a shitty Jew”, on the a facebook group you monitor.
Be careful of trying to be the peacekeeper Michael, when proof of you acting otherwise is all over the internet, on such sites as Facebook, where you used your rhetoric to support the throwing away of an unknown number of Rebel Yell newspapers. And yet, if though your Rebel Yell protest group still exists, you still publish letters to the editor in said newspaper. Seriously?
Or should we bring up the blantant racism in the fraternity you represent? Come on man. Last year, what was the name of that event AEPi hosted? “Pilgrim Pimps and Nava-Hoes”? I have a copy of said event flyer. Not a good look.
Before you start playing Mr. detergent, make sure your own laundry is clean.
Different michael
I’m talking about Michael Roitman, who wrote this article. And I assumed that was the Michael on this forum.
Guys, I am a Palestinian and speaking for my self, my father, brothers, relatives, and millions of Palestinian refugees all over the world.
I am speaking about my home town which I never saw in my life, about the place my father was born in and the place where he is not allowed to even visit one day. I am speaking from a humanitarian point of view; most of you guys can visit Palestine and Israel despite the fact that you may have absolutely nothing to do with that land. Still I can’t understand who gave Israelis the right to ban Indigenous owners of the land from even visiting their homeland??
To Michael and the other pro-Israelis., I would like that you tell me why should Palestinians pay the price of Holocaust? If the Nazi’s did it, why should I be the one who sacrifices his land and suffers the consequences daily??
Приятно конечно понимать, что остались действительно стоящие блоги в этой мусорке рейтинга Яши. Ваш – один из таких. Спасибо!
I have been working in a temporary part time position for over a year. ,